Sabrina Pace-Humphreys: Running towards inclusivity

27 Feb

S16 Ep 4

Today’s guest is Sabrina Pace Humphreys, an ultra-runner, award-winning businesswoman, social justice activist, personal trainer, running coach and co-founder and trustee of the community and campaigning charity Black Trail Runners. The mother of four and grandmother of three, recently published her memoir, Black Sheep, a story of rural racism, identity and hope.
It’s fascinating to hear how a short walk/jog in the depths of post-natal depression evolved through marathons and ultra-distance races into Sabrina becoming a torchbearer in the running community.

Sabrina opens up about the trauma she experienced growing up as a black child on the poverty line in a small town in England, the impact of her addiction to alcohol, and what led her to the Marathon de Sables aged 40.

We explore how it’s possible to mentally push yourself through the discomfort and stress of a gruelling race, why women have such success over long-distance events and her running ambitions for the future.

Sabrina is forthright about the urgent need for diversity in trail running and the outdoors. We explore the creation and impact of Black Trail Runners, considering the obstacles that runners of colour face, and celebrate initiatives like Black to the Trails that are reshaping the narrative.

This powerful episode highlights the significance of community, representation and the collective work needed to create a trail running environment that welcomes every runner, regardless of their background.

Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.

Find out more about The Game Changers podcast here: https://www.fearlesswomen.co.uk/thegamechangers

Hosted by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media

A Fearless Women production

This transcript has been autogenerated so please forgive typos.

Sue Anstiss Host00:02

Hello and welcome to the Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down the barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond? I'd like to start with a big thank you to our sponsors, sport England, who support the Game Changers podcast through a national lottery award. My guest today is Sabrina Pace-Humfreys, an ultra runner, award-winning businesswoman, social justice activist, mother of four, grandmother of three, a personal trainer, running coach and co-founder and trustee of the community and campaigning charity Black Trail Runners. Oh yes, and she's now also a race director and an author too. In 2023, Sabrina appeared on the TV series Survivor and she was also featured on the front cover of Runners World.

01:08

Sabrina recently published her memoir Black Sheep a story of rural racism, identity and hope. It's a very personal story of growing up as a black child on the poverty line in a small town in England. It's an incredibly moving and powerful book that I would urge you all to read. Finding running after suffering from post-natal depression sparked something inside Serena that made her want to help others use running, and trail running in particular, to manage their mental health. Sabrina, you obviously have achieved so much in your life so far and I really struggle to know where to start in talking to you. Your book Black Sheep had a huge impact on me personally. I'd like to come back to that if I can, but I wonder if I can start with you as a runner. I mentioned in the introduction you'd found running after post-natal depression, so can you talk to us about how running came into your life?

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest02:03

Yeah, and thank you for having me on. It's amazing to be here how running came into my life. If anything, running was kind of my nemesis growing up. It was something that you know, a sport that I didn't see myself represented in. I felt it was a sport that was only for a certain demographic of a little girl or a young adult like me.

02:28

But I was introduced to running, or I was given the idea of why not try going for a jog, after I'd had my fourth child in 2009 and I was experiencing, as I talk about within the book, quite a severe episode of post-natal depression. The illness had taken me over so much that I didn't even know what I was going through. All I knew was that I was very disconnected to my baby. I was disconnected to myself, my family, my business, everything. And it was only at the 12 week post-natal check, when I went to my GP, as many parents do, to check over the baby and to check you over that my GP picked up quite quickly that all was not well in the sense of the answers to the questions that she was asking me, the responses that I was giving, and diagnosed post-natal depression and as one of the tools to cope. You know I have no shame. You know I was prescribed medication, talk therapy, but also amongst that she said to me you know, I really want you to do something that kind of almost just gives you a little bit of headspace, away from the family, away from the baby, away from your normal everyday life. You know why not try jogging? And I kind of looked at her like she was kind of from another planet, because jogging is again. It was, you know, just not something that I'd a place I ever saw myself. I didn't like it, or I didn't think I liked it. I didn't like that form of movement. So it was this foreign activity to me. And for a couple of days I very much kind of went against her advice because I was like that's not going to help me. If anything, that's going to make me feel worse.

04:23

But I was so ill that I just knew that if a doctor is telling me that I need to do this, I should try this. I didn't even have any running gear. I put on a baggy t-shirt, a painting t-shirt, as many of us will have. A pair of baggy trousers, a pair of old school Dunlops, not even proper running shoes, because I didn't have them and I went down to what actually was a trail, although I didn't know it was a trail, it was the Canal Topar and I shuffled my way along a out and back, half a mile out, half a mile back. It was a one minute walk, one minute shuffle, and all I could think about was breathing, was not falling in the canal, was moving my body, which I put on a lot of weight, in a way that allowed me to get home.

05:30

And when I got home and I fell in the door because I lost my legs, fell in the door and I was lying on the kitchen floor and my husband was kind of said to me you know, are you okay? And I looked up at him and I said I'm in such physical pain. But I realised that for 45 or so minutes that I hadn't had any thoughts about my own life, about the value of me being on the earth, because that's where these depressive thoughts were taking me, that I was no use to anyone, I couldn't do anything right, I didn't have connection. I realized I'd had none of those intrusive thoughts because all I could think about was moving my body forward, was breathing, and although it was painful on my body. I, from that moment, knew that I would wanna go out again, because that headspace, that release and freedom that moving my body forward gave me was addictive. I wanted more of that.

Sue Anstiss Host06:38

And, it's fair to say, your journey in running progressed pretty rapidly. So from that canal run, walk, shuffle, but moving on 5Ks and then marathons. How soon were you running at that level and how many marathons did you do?

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest06:53

Yeah, so I did my first marathon in 2011. So that was three years after that and I think that when it came to running because that headspace that it gave me in terms of mental health management or mental illness management at the beginning quickly translated to me okay, well, I've done a mile, can I do a mile and a half? I've done a mile and a half, can I do two? And then that translated to well, what do people that run do Like in order to put goals in place for their running? Well, five K, 10 K half marathon, marathon.

07:34

And that led me on that journey of understanding a little bit more about what running was, about the community, about being a woman, being a mother as a runner, and the barriers that I faced there in terms of training and in terms of again seeing myself represented as a mother, as a female, out there within the running community.

07:56

And also it led me into joining a UK Athletics Local Run Club and what that looked like and how that fitted and didn't fit into my life. So the journey, that progression yeah, it was quite quick, because I've always sought to understand how far I can get in a certain discipline, whether that's business, whether it is my social life and hobbies, or now, whether it is the sport that I choose to use as a way to still, first and foremost, manage a very stressful, busy life, but ultimately, how to challenge how far I can go within this sport. How far can my body take me, what can my body do? And to translate that into now, kind of being in the position that I am leading communities and run coaching and personal training to help other women, other communities, in order to understand what they can do.

Sue Anstiss Host08:57

And you, asif, and Marathon wasn't far enough that the first major ultra challenge you then took on was Marathon, Desablo . Can you explain ? Yeah, can you explain that race for those that might not know and how it came about to take and again another kind of jump and shift onto something that's quite extraordinary from doing, I say, just Marathons, but doing Marathons.

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest09:19

Well, yeah, I mean part of my story that you'll read about in my book and again, I think it's really important to talk about this as part of my journey is that as a method to cope with unresolved trauma, with stress. Over the years I developed a dependency and addiction to alcohol. I was what they would call a high functioning alcoholic. So, to all intents and purposes, you would see me in business, you would see me on the street, you would see me looking after my children. You would say, hey, that's a woman that's got it all together, whereas in the background, actually, I was struggling. I was struggling and to cope with that, in order to numb from that, I was one glass of wine turned into two, turned into half a bottle, turned into an addiction to alcohol. So I sought recovery. I knew that I needed help and I found a fellowship for other people who drink the way that I do and have the addiction that I do, in order to help me recover, in order to help me stay sober a day at a time, in order to live. And as part of that journey, my sponsor had said to me you've got to get busy living, and I was running at that time, but I needed something more. I needed something else. I needed a focus because I was coming up to my 40th birthday and, with the life that I had left, I knew that in a past life, had I got to my 40th birthday, it would have been a big weekend of partying, alcohol involved, champagne, corks, popping, all of that and I knew that I needed to focus on something to celebrate the fact that I'd made it to 40. And it was one night that I was.

11:05

It was a Saturday night, it was early in recovery. I was flicking around the TV channels and I flicked onto the Discovery Channel and all I heard was this Northern Irish guy who was a voiceover on this program and he was saying you know, this is James Cracknell. You know, olympic athlete, he is taking part in the toughest foot race on Earth, the Marathon de Saab, a 153 mile multi-stage ultramarathon in the Sahara Desert. And that cut then to a photo of James hooked up to an IV, bringing up bile. You know this Olympic elite athlete. And I was hooked. I was like what is this? What causes an athlete like that to behave in this manner?

12:01

And it was an hour program and it was a documentary about the Marathon de Saab, which has the strapline of the toughest foot race on Earth, but yet, to all intents and purposes, it's 250K, 153 miles, multi-stage, so multi-day.

12:16

You carry everything you need on your back, absolutely everything, from clothing to fuel, to water, to every medical kit, all of it and over five days you traverse a route in the Sahara Desert, 45 degree to 50 degree temperatures, and you are responsible for yourself. And when that program finished, I thought, oh my God, why the hell would anyone do that to themselves? But there was a little spark inside that was like I wonder if I could do that. I wonder if this mum of four, grandmother of one at that time, I wonder if I could do that. I wonder if this is the thing. I wonder if I could even get in. And it took me to opening the laptop on the day registrations opened for the 2018 race and I signed up and that took me on an 18 month journey to train, mostly in the UK, to run and compete in the marathon this up in 2018 and two months after I turn 40.

Sue Anstiss Host13:22

And you've continued on with these extraordinary ultra challenges. So I just bring us up to gate from from 2018 to now. What is that? The incredible challenge you did just at the end of 2023?

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest13:35

Oh, my goodness, yeah, so from from crossing the finish line as the 11th British woman at the marathon this up in 2018. It led me on a journey of adventure, of wanting to explore the outdoors via trail running, explore the world via trail running, a world that I'd only ever seen in picture books. You know, I grew up we were very poor. We know I didn't go abroad until I was 17. And it led me, yeah, ultimately to do many different ultra marathons around the world, but and the latest one being what's called the Winter Downs 200, which I started on the 13th of December 2023.

14:20

And that is a 210 of mile let's get that right trail loop around the southeast of England, continuous. The clock starts and it doesn't stop until you either pull out or you cross the finish line. It takes on board five national trails the North Downs way, the South Downs way, the Vanguard's way since withensway and way there is war. And you choose if and when you sleep, you choose if and when you eat. And I am so happy that I can say to you, because it was one of the hardest things, even though it was the UK the UK trails in winter are a force to be reckoned with but I crossed the finish line as eighth woman.

Sue Anstiss Host15:07

Oh, wow.

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest15:08

And it was. It was at times like a living nightmare. I think that the very difficult thing about this race was it was 16 hours per day in darkness. It's, you know, the shortest, shortest days of the year.

15:24

One of the things I absolutely adore and I advocate about ultra running is it doesn't matter how fast or slow you are. For me it's the journey. You know I'll be out on a, on a trail run, and I'll look around and I can see the hill I'm running to, I can see where I've been. I see the most amazing views. It gives me so much more than it takes trail running, whereas it's a very different beast when you're out for 16 hours a day and all you can see is what your head torch is showing in front of you and it feels like I don't see if you've ever had those nightmares where you're just running and not getting anywhere.

15:59

And that is what it is like, and I think that was what was what the hardest thing about this ultra and why, when I finished it, I struggled to comprehend what I had done, because for 16 hours every day, I was in that deep, dark place that many athletes have to go to, and it's our ability to get us out, get ourselves out of there.

16:22

When we're doing these challenges, especially that are solo of I didn't know how or when I would be able to get myself out, but it's that well of resilience that I think I've developed throughout my life circumstances that give me this unique set of tools that I'm able to continue to move forward and know that, ultimately, with the darkness, the light will always come. And, yeah, to finish it was a week before Christmas in the arms of my husband who was at the finish line, my best friend, my crew was a real moment and it was the first buckle that I've ever got for a race. So, yeah, I'm really glad to sit here today and say that I did actually finish it, because it was, I think, 43, 43 people pulled out.

Sue Anstiss Host17:08

Tell me about a buckle for a race. What for those that might not be familiar?

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest17:12

We all know that for some most races you'll get a medal. When it comes to ultramarathans, what they've started to do within the industry is give buckles, so almost like big belt buckles, and that belt buckle normally has engraved into it the race and you know, a logo and stuff like that, but it's kind of it's like the next step up from a medal. It's like you can't wear it around your neck. So you know, you either display it or you buy a special belt to wear it with. So it was the first ever buckle that I've ever had for a race and, yeah, it felt very. It felt like I'd really earned it and but I was no use to anyone at Christmas.

17:51

Let's just put it out there now. I could barely walk. I could barely walk. I was very emotional. I think over the course of the race I'd had three hours sleep. So sleep deprived, hallucinating, yeah, just just, just just everything that goes into when you put your body out there and you're asking more from it than it ever felt it was capable to give. So yeah, I'm just about recovered.

Sue Anstiss Host18:16

It's really interesting is that I'm interesting in how you sort of mentally push yourself through that pain and discomfort and distress during a grueling race. I spoke to Chrissy Wellington on the podcast she's actually in the first series the podcast and talked about during Iron man, her mental approach. When she reflects back when it's really tough, that she knows she's done this before. So that is what she tells herself is we have been here before and we can do it again, which, when I think about what you're doing, you almost haven't been. You're doing different distances or different. It isn't necessarily a place you've been in the past. So so what is it you feel takes you to enable you? And is it something that any not anyone could do? But do you think with the right mindset and people are capable of doing it, or do you think it's something quite unique that you have?

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest19:00

I think, in terms of the the well of resilience, that I'm able to dip into that, that deep, dark place where, when many people decide enough is enough, that I'm able to go even deeper. I think nothing is as bad as feeling, as a child, that your life is in risk. And for me, in terms of ultramarathans, I know my body is strong, but I know my mind is stronger. And when it comes to traversing 100 miles, distances of hundreds of miles, in a race scenario, it's, it's a head game. You know, and and for me, I believe that if you have been through whether you've trained yourself to or whether your life circumstances just dictate that you've, you've been in situations where, for me, as I say, I fear for my life. You know, in childhood, in adulthood, in terms of situations I've been in, nothing is, nothing compares to that.

20:02

So the things I tell myself is like this is and I was, I was really reflecting on this after the race that the things, the mantras I tell myself, or the things I tell myself is this is a choice, this is your choice, sabrina, how much can you endure? How much more can you endure? But always remember, you choose, you are choosing this. This isn't being inflicted upon you and you have no choices to whether to continue, and I think it's really, really important always and I think the social activism work, or the work with the charity that I do now in the sense of breaking down barriers to the outdoors via the active trail running I am privileged to be able to do things like this.

20:52

There are many hundreds of thousands, of millions of people that will never get the opportunity to do what I do, and it's these things that I continue to tell myself. When my feet are bleeding, when I'm suffering with GI issues, I can't keep food down. When I'm hallucinating I'm seeing people on the trail that aren't there, and when it feels as though there is no more to give, I can dig very, very deep in order to remember this is. This is nothing like the mental pain that you have been through, and this is a choice.

Sue Anstiss Host21:27

Clearly you're not early in this journey, but you've been running for some time. Are there other big races and challenges that are still on your bucket list? I see you almost like a forest scump. I can running across the whole of the world as every race is getting longer and further, but how do you balance that?

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest21:43

Yeah, I mean, there are so many different adventures, explorations that I want to take. I'm so inspired by things that I've seen online. I think for me, what I really want to do either this year or next year I think it's probably looking like next year is that I'd really like to do the Le Jog. I'd like to run from Land's End to Johnna Grotes on trails as a continuous journey. There's something around kind of, you know, really reclaiming this land, my home, and telling my story, but also the stories of others, while I'm doing that. There's something around that journey, that and this you know that's an 870-odd mile journey and there's something around doing that. That certainly is an adventure that I want to take. But also, you know, bigger than that. You know, as I say, different trails around the world, different places that you know, especially those people from that you know that I'd advocate for, but from historically marginalized communities, deprived communities that they could. The other moment. They see those things and they can only dream of them and I want to inspire and show Bit by bit, with the right support, we can do things that are beyond our wildest dreams.

23:04

And, as I say, as a little girl I saw the Sahara desert in picture books. I never believed the. I would run there and I remember standing at the top of the sand dune and it was as the sun setting and this golden light was kind of Sweeping the landscape and I just remember this feeling of massive spiritual connection with the land and with my place on earth and I want so many more people To feel that weather that is in their own backyard and exploring and adventuring places locally that they they'd never been, or whether it is the world, I want to, I want to be that conduit to everyone feeling that they can have that sense of adventure and in terms of traveling, I think, just to clarify, it doesn't need to be on Hills and, and you know, outward canal pass and so anywhere outside.

Sue Anstiss Host24:01

outside, in terms of not on the road, as it were that's it.

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest24:05

Yeah, not on the road, and that's the thing you know. Trail running it's anywhere. For me, my definition of trail running anywhere, that's not your concrete, your tarmac. So, whether that's a park, park run, a lot of park runs are basically trail runs because they take place. You know fields, parks, etc, etc. You know canal to paths, local green space, green space. You know if you're getting off the road, your trail running.

Sue Anstiss Host24:30

I was just reflecting from a female perspective is interesting that we're seeing so many women excelling in ultra running now and I wonder whether Physiology, the fact that women deal with regular pain of my peers and to meet two items with with childbirth, etc. Whether that Does impact that, because we are seeing a difference of we look across all sports actually not running women really are excelling.

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest24:52

Yeah, we do. I mean, you have just been Paris who had the record, has the female record for Moving on the pen. I'm way, you know the spine race 268 miles nonstop. I did that two years ago. You have people, you know women, like Nikki Spinks. You know an older trail runner who's going out there winning races, etc. Etc. You have Camille Herron, a US ultra runner, who's a world record holder.

25:15

The data shows that when it comes to running, endurance, running, you know, men are kind of leading the charge up to a specific distance, but when you get over a specific ultra distance, women Are competing on a level. And I do believe, as you said and I think the date is what are physiology? I think it is our pain threshold, I think it is our mental endurance, I think it is all of these different physiological and mental Skills, biological, genetic that we have that when it comes to specific distances, we are able to go longer. We are able to go longer. I think it's also partly because it's something that I saw when I was doing the winter downs 200. We deal with so much as women. We have to juggle so many different balls and In order to do that, a lot of us have to really kind of plan. You know, time block, etc. Etc. So when I was doing the winter downs 200. A big part of it was for me.

26:12

Sabrina, you have nothing to prove at the start. Like, do not get caught up in the melee of going fast and of Showing subconsciously, unconsciously look how strong I am when it comes to endurance, for any. It's not about that. It's who slows down the slowest. It's managing your body. It's managing every element of what it takes in order to keep you moving. Are you eating regularly? Are you drinking regularly? Are you looking after those small problems before they become bigger? And I just believe wholeheartedly that women have a capacity to do that better than men when it comes to endurance running. And we see that in the records that we're being broken in the adventures and the fkts that are being smashed. Courtney DeWalter, us ultra marathon runner, who has been doing the most amazing things over the past couple of years when it comes to ultra running. So you know we really have to Own that. You know, let's own it. Let's inspire other women, other girls, in order to know that this is an option for you. This is a real option for you.

Sue Anstiss Host27:19

I'm, and let's do everything we can to empower Do you ever get concerned about the impact on your body of so much running? Says a woman who had a. I had a hit up in 2019 but I haven't run since then. I haven't run since 2018, but reading your book has made me sign up for an hs couch 5k. I started running again. You're having an amazing impact but, here's your impact on one, just one more.

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest27:57

You know I the reason I qualified as a personal trainer is I take out two local women's run groups called Stroud mums on the run and I started in 2016. Because I knew that I wanted to do something that felt like I was making an impact on people's lives, and what I was experiencing when I started that up was a lot of women were coming to me. I've been quite lucky in my running career to really never experience injury Serious injury. That stopped me but a lot of my women were complaining of knee pain, hip pain, lower back pain, and I was. I want to have the qualifications in order to help them with this. So I qualified as a personal trainer because I was under the guy guidance of personal trainer and the strength and conditioning work that I was doing, I believe Was helping me to do what I was doing in the ultra world having that strong core, strong gluteus muscle, strong legs, strong shoulders to hold packs and I wasn't getting injured. And I'm a real advocate of especially and especially for women getting to a certain age as we mature. Just because you embark upon a strength and conditioning program doesn't mean you're going to look at like the Hulk if you don't want to, but what it does mean is, I believe it helps us to continue to move in a way that is joyful and a way that is kinder to our bodies for longer, especially when it comes to osteoporosis in para menopausal and menopausal women. So I do that, I do my strength and conditioning two times a week, just two times a week, 40 minutes, and that has helped me, I believe, to alleviate injury, keeping me strong, keeping me flexible with my mobility work and keeping me able to do what I love, which is running. So I think also the fact that I'm a trail runner, so when I'm running on that ground it's working with me rather than against me. I do a lot of muddy running at the moment, so you know there's a lot of squishing which lessens that impact upon the joints. But I think the form of running I do, how I train, how I really feel, intuitively in terms of what my body needs and wants protein, rest, recovery, sleep it enables me to function at a level that other 45, almost 46 year old struggle to, and I believe it's because of the training and the cross training that I do. So you know, so I don't worry about it.

30:27

I think since I've become perimenopausal and other things have come in. I'm more aware now as to how to manage my body. For example, last year I suffered with a bout of Achilles tendonitis and I thought it was something that I was doing within my training and actually what it turned, physiotherapists said to me well, of course you know, because Achilles tendonitis is more apparent within perimenopausal women, and I had never heard this before and when I started talking about it my followers were like Sab, we've never heard this before. So that led me down a path of working with a physio and increasing my uptake in collagen and amending training specifically in order to rehab from that. So now I'm kind of starting to get into that realm of dealing with kind of things that just due to hormone levels, et cetera, et cetera, starting to impact me that I need to very much be aware of because I wanna run as long as I can. I love it, you know. It helps me to cope with the stresses and the strains of life.

Sue Anstiss Host31:36

I'd love to move on to your work around Black Trailer Runners. So in 2020, you were co-founded in the Unreal Trust. You're a Black Trailer Runner, so what was the ambition of the community at the time?

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest31:46

So the ambition of the community really came from an experience that I talk about in the book, where I was trail running in France and I slipped off the side of a trail in a snow field in the mountains and I was screaming for my life, knowing that if I fell I would either die or I would be very seriously injured, life-changing, and I was passed by five white male runners and ignored as if I wasn't there, as if I was invisible. It was a very harrowing experience. I was pulled up by a man, the sixth man but it made me really question my place in this sport. It made me question my safety as a woman, as a woman of color, and whether I belonged here. It made me want to not run anymore because I didn't feel safe.

32:36

That was late 2019, then we went into 2020 and we went into lockdown. We had the murder of a Black Runner in America called Amouddhaabri and the murders of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd, and the running community globally, especially runners of color, were saying like are we safe here? I don't feel safe here. We had the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement and in that whole time that early 2020, I wanted to find I was actively searching for a trail running community that, first and foremost, was a safe space for runners of color, and it wasn't there. So I was like I've got to create it. I've got to create this community that I so desperately need. I reached out to a couple of people I'd heard one of them on a podcast. I'd been introduced to another one by a friend who I'd reached out to, who runs a heads up a London running collective, and we got together on Zoom and we said you know, this is kind of what we want to create a community that is around creating community number one, but also starting to talk about why there is such a lack of diversity within the outdoors via the active trail running. Why is this a very dominant white sport? Why is it a dominant male sport? What is it? What are the barriers? How can we campaign on these as well? And in June 2020, july 2020, we launched Black Trail Runners. We had no idea. We had no idea if it would take off or not, but what I knew is I've at least met a couple of other people who love the outdoors too, that will hopefully be my friends forever that I can run with, and from the moment we pressed launch. It went crazy globally With people of color saying finally a community for us, finally people who want to talk about and challenge event organizers and challenge policymakers and challenge organizations around what they're doing in order to diversify this sport.

34:44

You know, there's this myth that running is for everyone, but running is not for everyone. Running is marketed as being for everyone, but there are barriers that exist not just for historically marginalized communities, ethnic communities, but also for disadvantaged communities, but those people who are socially, economically disadvantaged. You know you say that all you need is a pair of trainers for running, but it's a fallacy and what we seek to do is address these misconceptions around access to the outdoors via trail running, transportation costs, access, navigation you know the fact that a lot of the communities of color, black communities in the UK are urbanized to big cities. How do you find green spaces? How do you even know where to look? How do you navigate them? Skills how do you trail run? How is trail running different to road running? If you're not told, if you're not educated, how would you ever know? And representation that's another thing we work on is you can't be what you can't see. But more than that, because I believe that that's kind of coming full circle. It's that you have to hear stories from, or see people represented not only look like you but potentially have that same social background as you. So it's taking that representation piece and saying look, I'm here doing this, come, join community, come be educated, come be inspired, because you belong here too and together. If we can enable, if we can inspire, if we can support communities that do not see themselves in the outdoors via the act of trail running, then that's when we create a truly global running scene. And where we started that up in 2020, and it can we became a charity in 2021.

36:49

Last year we I was race director at our very first highlight event, which was Black to the Trails, and we've been told in our work by race organisers and brands you know, we've tried to diversify this sector. We've tried to do this. It hasn't worked, and what we said is the reason it hasn't worked is because you do not have people with the lived experience, a diverse board or workforce or project lead that has those community connections but understands what elements need to be in these events in order for the people to come. So we did it. We did it. We said we're going to have to do this ourselves. So, black to the Trails.

37:32

Our trail running event, the world's most diverse trail running event we had last year, we held it at Dunstable Downs last May and it was beautiful and it was joyful and it was a carnival, and the pictures that you'll see and the videos that are out there, this is what a diverse outdoors looks like, and we're doing it again this year. We're doing it again on the 12th of May and it's going to be bigger and better and again I'm race organising and project leading it. But oh, it gives back. It gives back so much more than it takes. And just to see that joy in the trails, in the outdoors, 70% people of colour, last year, 70% female, which absolutely smashes all data around trail running that's what I live for.

Sue Anstiss Host38:21

It's those moments, that's fabulous and I will put a link to in the show notes too the race for people to register for next year as well too. It's so lovely to hear you're going to clearly your amazing passion for the whole of the change you're driving. Do you think things are changing so? Obviously you're doing amazing things and you created the group and the success of Black Square trails, but is the sector changing all the other events? Because that's where the true impact happens, isn't it in terms of other race organisers, other people within the running sector? Are you seeing that change happening?

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest38:54

I think what I've seen very much over the last three years and I think it's a great question to ask. I saw, you know, in 2020, we can, you? I don't know if you can remember Black Square Tuesday, oh, yeah, yeah. Anyway, it was a. It was a Tuesday where brands, various brands within the outdoors kind of said you know, we need to do better, be better, etc. Funds were put into diverse ED&I initiatives and and, for a time, there was, you know, a bit of hope within the community that these could be sustainable projects.

39:23

What we've seen happen over the last couple of years, in the last 18 months in particular, is backpedalling Is, whereas we took three steps forward, we're taking two steps back. What you see is budget being pulled, project leads, ed&i chiefs being, you know, made redundant, etc. Etc. The industry needs to continue to take serious action when it comes to this. You know we are more than a moment. This is about more than a trend. You know we are not a trend. This is our lives, this is our right in order to experience this form of moving it in the outdoors.

39:59

So my, my answer to that, sue, is that there is much more work that needs to be done, and that work, that consult, consultation, work which leads to intentional action, needs to be led by people such as myself and other community leaders who have their fingers on the pulse in terms of how to make this change and how to ultimately create sustainability, because our communities want this.

40:28

And, don't get me wrong, although there are barriers to financial access, we have money to spend when it comes to products, services, etc. Unfortunately, there aren't enough CEOs or CMOs or boards that really understand that, because they're only seeing this, this, this rise in popularity, through a specific lens. So there's much work to be done, sue, and I'm here for it, and it's something that I'm very passionate about and the change that I've seen through what we've done. There is no reason that that cannot be translated, and we have various events who are friends of Black Trail Runners, event organizers who are doing great things, but then there will always be that tipping point we reach. There are many, many more that can be replicating that or can be finding a way in order to address this lack of ethnicity, this lack of diversity, with simple steps, but it does involve them asking themselves uncomfortable questions in terms of whether they see a new demographic of Trail Runner as a demographic that they want to serve.

Sue Anstiss Host41:36

If I can take you back just to your life growing up in the Cotswolds as a young girl. I mean, you've mentioned the book a couple of times and I would absolutely say it had a huge impact on me. I finished it in a day, which says something, doesn't it? But you write so eloquently. I was just, I couldn't stop. But you, I would really recommend it because you write so eloquently about your experience and I found it really moving, but very enlightening as well too. So can you give us a little of your history of growing up in a town where no one looked like you, and the experience you had and I guess, how that has then impacted what you're doing today?

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys Guest42:11

Yeah, as a little girl. So my I'm mixed race, I'm a Black mixed race woman. My mother is white, my father is Black and when I was four my parents split up and my mother is Scottish and because of the relationship that she'd had with my father, she was almost banished from Scotland by her family because he was a Black man. So even before I was born, my, my mother was dealing with racism for just for the fact that she she had me, you know, in her tummy. But when I was four my parents split up and we moved from Taunton in Somerset to a small market town in the Cotswolds, stroud, and in that, in those days, in the 80s and 90s, you know, really to present day, you know, when I was growing up there, I did not see any other Black people, any other mixed race children, anyone that looked like me. They weren't there. So therefore, from as young as I can remember and one of the stories that I talk about in the book, I I was the target. I was target for children, adults, in a subconscious way, of racism, of rural racism, of of being in, in, in living in a town where there is such a lack of diversity for it to be not there at all and because of how different you look. You know I I had an Afro. I was a lot darker when I was younger. As I've got older, you know, I'm my, my I light, I've lightened up a lot, but I was a lot darker when I was younger. I was never mistaken for a white person. I was always racialized as Black. So that's a really important, I think, point is that you know you can be mixed race. My sister is racialized as white. So you look at my sister and I next to each other. When we were young, my sister never experienced. My sister, to the present day, has never experienced any form of racism. She presents as white, whereas I present, I present as Black, I presented as Black as a child. So therefore, my experience of racism was not one that I could share, even with her. I couldn't share it with my mum because she, she's white, she had never experienced anything like this and you know it was really.